Post vasectomy scrotal hematoma
Mar 12th 2008adminMiscellaneous symptoms after vasectomy
I had a vasectomy two weeks ago and experienced a scrotal hematoma almost immediately after. Now that the swelling and bruising has gone down, I still have what appears to be a large growth on the top and side of my left testicle. I’ve waited for five days and it’s not getting smaller or changing in shape. It is also very hard to the touch. My concern is that I have a blood clot or some type of issue other then a hematoma. I was told to expect the blood to eventually absorb back into the body, but as there hasn’t been a change for a few days, I’m concerned about what it might be. Any ideas?
Post-operative hematoma is a known potential complication of any scrotal surgery including vasectomy. Scrotal hematoma results from some persistent bleeding inside the scrotal compartment after the procedure is completed, essentially, it is a big blood clot. The resolution of the hematoma can take anywhere from a few weeks to a few months. Residual tenderness or pain can persist for an equal amount of time. A discretely tender area on one side can represent a tender and inflamed epididymis. Scrotal hematomas by themselves are generally not painful unless they are very large and cause a mass effect or become infected. This situation should be re-evaluated by the surgeon performing the vasectomy and further diagnostic tests such as an ultrasound can help differentiate amongst the causes of a painful lump in the scrotum after vasectomy if physical exam alone is insufficient.
Anonymous on 12 Mar 2008 at 7:26 pm #
I’m 12 days post vasectomy and in just the same situation as you, eg: hematoma/growth on the top and side of my testicle.
Please post updates on your recovery…I’d like to know how you get on…
I think this would be very useful to me and lots of other guys looking for anwers… You know what I’m saying, it’s just good to hear that your not alone.
LOURDES on 18 Mar 2008 at 4:49 am #
My husband had a vasectomy on the 7th of March. It is now the 17th and his testicle is still the size of a small potatoe-I can see the swelling is even behind his testicles. His doctor is going to do an evacuation of the scrotal hematoma tomorrow-which means a hospital procedure with general anestetic. I am worried about this but cannot find much information about any other treatment. If left untreated it may cause an infection that we do not want, plus it may take months for him to recover. He has already missed two weeks of work waiting for it to go down with antibiotics.
Also make sure you ask your docto when he is taking his vacations. Our doctor decided to take the week off after my husbands vasectomy-it was a nightmare! We felt so lost…
DW on 22 Mar 2008 at 3:36 am #
I had pain in my left side as well and swelling. Had it done on 2-29, went back to Dr. on Wednesday, put me on a week of anitbiotics and anti-inflammatories. After one week, I went back and put me on another week of the same. Has been two days without any medication and is much better, but evaluating to see if continues to improve.
KW on 26 Apr 2008 at 3:27 pm #
I had a vericocele operation two weeks ago and now have what I’m told is a hematoma. It’s not pretty with my left testicle now the size of my fist and feels like I’m carrying a 10lb. lead weight. It’s that hard as well. I never would have guessed human tissue other than bone could become that hard. Will this eventually disappear? Is there anything I should be doing to help the swelling? Ice? Heat?
RDP on 20 May 2008 at 2:09 pm #
Had an anesthetic block performed in the groin prior to the vasectomy. One hour later, physcian found the vas he was looking for ( coudnt decide if it was vas or vein??) Oh Please dont get the wrong one, I thought. By this time the lidocaine was wearing off as he sutured the incision closed. With every stick of the suture I winced and flinched. Doctor said he could give more lidocaine, but he was almost finished and if I could handle just a little more pain it would be better. So I did. Immediately upon completion, I put on my prescribed jockstrap and headed for the door with my wife.
Once I was home I packed my package in ice as prescribed and laid on the couch all day. By that evening my scrotum was twice the size of normal and growing firmer by the minute so I took some hydrocodone for pain and to sleep.
When I awoke the next morning, I awoke to a scrotum that was the size of a small cantalope! I couldnt put my legs together. I couldnt walk. I had to carry my scrotum with both hands while sqatting with legs apart to walk. I called the doctor and he said to continue with ice and medicatons.
Two weeks later, I am having the clot evacuated as my urologist friend (who did not perform the procedure) reopens the incision and commences to manually squeeze the old congealed blood out. Finally the pressure and pain was relieved. I was on my way to recovery, which took another two weeks.
Word to the wise. Have a specialist perform the procedure. I had an FP who is a dear friend perform the procedure. He meant well, but just wasnt proficient.
steve on 04 Jul 2008 at 8:47 pm #
I had my appendix removed and ended up with a pretty bad hematoma that drained all the way into my scrotum. The swelling has gone down quite a bit, it’s almost to normal size and my blood count is almost back to normal. However now I have noticed the same hard lump that everyone is talking about. I just want to know is it will eventually go away like the swelling and what not
anonymous on 18 Jul 2008 at 10:34 am #
I had a vasectomy in January 07, the hospital released me the same day but as I was on my way home I felt sharp and growing pain. By the time I got home one side of my scrotum was black with blood build up. Inside 24 hours my scrotum had swollen to such an extent that my underwear wouldn’t fit, and I couldn’t even stand up – gravity with a blood-filled scrotum brought agonising pain. The inside of my left thigh was spotted with black pools of blood just below skin level.
I was off work for three weeks, but it took 6 months for the haemotoma to fully disperse. An absolute nightmare.
My GP’s response to me was “don’t tell any men what’s happened to you, it’ll just put them off getting a vasectomy!”
MT, UK
kevin on 20 Jul 2008 at 3:38 pm #
i too am in the same situation. had a vasectomy 2 days ago. all went well until i was home about 3 hours after the procedure and my right side started to swell really fast and i had shooting pains also. i call the doctor and he said to come back up to the office and he would try to drain it. he undid the stitches and started pressing on my scrotum which was extremely painful!! with minimal drainage he sent me over to the ER room to have an ultrasound done. a urologist looked at the ultrasound and said that it was just a scrotal hematoma and it would just have to fix itself. by the time i got home my scrotum was the size of a small cantaloupe. went to bed with ice packs on it. now two days later its the size of a grapefruit and kinda hurting. does anyone have any advice to give me? im scared that i will never be the same!!
kevin
KT on 24 Sep 2008 at 10:43 am #
well i had a vasectomy done on the friday its now wednesday and i have pain on the left side im going back to my doc to see what he thinks i just hope it goes and nothing comes of it!
SB on 07 Nov 2008 at 4:31 am #
I had a vasectomy on Oct 22. That night I almost passed out upon getting up from the couch. The walk to the bedroom was agonizing. My scrotum filled with blood so much I thought it was going to pop. I walked into the bathroom and almost passed out. My wife had to assist me with getting into bed.
On Oct 24 I went in to see the doctor. He said he had not seen what I had in the 20 years of his practice. Below my underwear line was bruising to my hips, pubic area, and my scrotum was completely swelled.
On Oct 31 I had to go to the emergency room because my doctor now was on vacation. The ER doctor said he had seen the problem before. It will take many weeks for the swelling to go down.
Today, Nov 6, I went to a different urologist. I had a ultrasound. My right testicle is surrounded by a large hematoma, the size of a softball. Blood is still getting to both testicles so the doctor was not too concerned. He said it will take a few months for the hematoma to be absorbed. He advised me to watch for infection, such as redness or fever. He also said he could surgically remove the hematoma, however, there can be complications.
Good luck to all who have to look for this website. I hope everyone’s story helps the next guy.
PS. No aspirin or Advil until the bleeding has stopped. Ice, ice, and more ice. After the bleeding stops you can alternate heat and cold.
Dave on 04 Dec 2008 at 1:25 pm #
Hi,
I had a vasectomy on the 28th Nov and was let home straight after the operation. During the journey home, I felt a tightening and pulling through my left groin/testical/leg.
It’s nearly a week later and I am still black and blue, and I can barely walk due to the pain and the swelling. My symptoms seem to point to a hematoma, but I will be visiting the doctor tomorrow to find out.
Thanks for all you stories/advice, i’ts been extremely helpful.
Justin on 06 Dec 2008 at 10:27 am #
I had a vas on Nov 4, that night I had to go to the ER secondary to my scrotum being the size of a grapefruit. The pain was about an 8 out of 10. I had bleeding/bruising into my abdomen and throughout my pelvis. It is now December 6th and my left testicle is still the size of a baseball and very hard. I can at least walk and stand on my feet for a few hours now. Still not to happy about it.
Jeremy on 28 Dec 2008 at 10:49 am #
I had a vasectomy sep 12. Coming home I passed out. A few days later I got hemotoma. I went back and he said I was fine. but not to work a week later it started getting bigger. He then said it still would be ok. The next week it was still getting bigger. The next week i went back and he sent me to have surgey. they put drain tubs in which were in for five daays and had around 10 or more stitches. The swelling went down right away. I went back in November do to some pain and itching and he said it would still feel this way for sevral months.
Now almost jan I still have pain and itching but i able to do nprmal stuff. I just wish this nightmare would go away.
randy Johnson on 12 Jan 2009 at 7:46 pm #
I had a vasectomy about 15 years ago and now i have a growth on the side of my right Testicle it is the size and shape of a cashew peanut and it helps when i take Advil. I had our family Doctor treat me for Epydidamidous and he put me on a antibiotic and it did not work . Is there something i can do to be done with ? The longer i’m on my feet during the day it hurts until i take Advil.Any sugestions would be appreciated.
Randy
Jason on 07 Feb 2009 at 2:10 am #
I had a vasectomy one week ago. After the left side was done, with moderate pain, he moved on to the right side. As soon as he grabbed the right testicle, it was very painful.
When I went home, my right side was very painful. After a week I still have a egg size hard lump above my right testicle. It is VERY painful. I went back to the doctor, and he says… you guessed it, hemotoma.
He perecribed rest and some vicodin. He wants to see me in two weeks.
I am not a happy camper. No physical activity for a min of three weeks was not want I expected going into this. The pain of the procedure and especially of the hemotoma was much greater than I expected.
Jason on 22 Feb 2009 at 5:47 am #
Just an update. Three weeks after vas and I now have little pain from the hematoma. I am planning on heading back to the gym next week and see how it goes. The size is decreasing a little bit. Hopefully it reduces quickly.
casey borgers on 20 Apr 2009 at 2:00 pm #
it’s been two and half weeks and my right nut is swollwen, hard and extremely painful. i’m going to the doctor today but last night, a stitch busted. i spent all night expressing the blood. it was clotty and had a bad smell. i think its just old blood. never the less, my scrotom is about half the size and much less painful. i will report back.
Jeremy on 22 Apr 2009 at 2:07 pm #
tHIS IS A UP DATE FROM LAST TIME I WROTE IF U HAVENT READ MY FIRST ONE ITS ON THIS PAGE LOOK FOR JEREMY IT IS NOW APRIL 22 2009. THE SWELLING IS GONE AND ALL THAT IS LEFT IS A SCAR. BUT ON THE OTHER HAND I STILL HAVE A DULL ACHE ALOT OF THE TIME AND HAVE A HARD TIME SLEEPING ON MY SIDE AND CROSSING OR PUTTING MY LEGS TOGETHER ITS NOW GOING ON EIGHT MONTH OF THIS SO CALLED STANDARD PROSEGER HELL AND I KNOW HAVE ANOTHER APPOINTMNET TO GET LOOKED AT AGAIN IM AM GETTING REAL TIERD OF THE WHOLE THING.THANKS FOR READING.
Mel on 02 May 2009 at 4:06 pm #
Please update to any of your recoverIes. My guy has the same situation as the above stated stories, it has been 3 weeks since his surgery. The Dr. perscribed the same lay around with ice then later heat and wait it out to let the blood absorb back in to the body. Got a 2nd opinion, he sais the same or that going in and have the hematoma removed surgically is what he would do if it were him, but htat is a hospital procedure and going under with anesticia. He went back to original Dr. and had they decided to insert a needle to withdraw some blood though the Dr thought it would be very little and wouldn’t help too much with size and pressure. To his surprise he withdrew 4-5 big suringes of blood which, in the Drs office relieved the pressure, pain and reduced the size. It was the size of a potato (11 cm x 6 cm). After a few hours of optimistic bliss, the swelling is back and so is the pain. It’s the weekend, so we’re waiting it out. My guy feels like there is still blood leaking and that is why his left side and become engorged again. “Everyone” we have talked to that has had a vasectomy had no problems and were out and about the next day. True that misery loves company, at least we now know he is not alone. We will keep updating. Please do the same guys. Looks like we are all in this together! Chris’ girl Melissa
Lee on 01 Jul 2009 at 2:02 pm #
I had a reversal last week (Wednesday). Was a day case, had the op at 0830 hrs, woke up in recovery with 2 drain tube in. Took back to the ward and at about 1600 hrs nurse came round to take the tubes out. Left tube was in about an inch. Right hand tube was in about 3 inchs. Took that one out and felt the dull pain, a week later I have been signed off work for 2 weeks after severe pain in the right hand side and a ump the size of a ping pong ball. On anti-biotic pills and am going back to see specialist tomorrow to see what he is going to do about it. I paid for the treatment so they can sort it out.
jason on 02 Jul 2009 at 2:10 am #
I had a vas 8 days ago and my left side is fine, but my right isn’t during the no scalpul vasectomy my doctor had to put in extra stiches on the right side he said i had some bleeding. I have some pain on the right side under my testicle and it feels like my vas defren on that side had a sack around it? is that possible? any help is appreciated…
Opnick on 06 Nov 2009 at 4:20 am #
Just had the Vas on Oct 9. one week of discomfort. then two weeks of no pain.
Oct 31 woke up and couldn’t move without pain.
Went to Dr. who did the Vas. told him the issue, he pinched my new medium-grape sized addition to the rest of my parts. It hurt like hell. He said it was a secondary hematoma, and it should go away in about 2 weeks and to call him if I notice any change for the worse (if it forms into a pimple and looks like it will explode, if I get a fever, etc.) It’s now one week after the new addition, the pain has gone down a lot considering I couldn’t walk for 2 days. but the size doesn’t seem much different.
Anyone else have this and what was shrink time like?
JDG on 17 Nov 2009 at 11:59 pm #
I had a vasectomy on Nov 9.
For 5 days I had a pulling pain on my right testicle, but not much swelling, just bruising.
On the 6th day, I woke up and the pain was gone. I went to my son’s baseball game, and helped with throwing and catching balls. At the end of the game I started noticing serious pain. When I got home, and took the jock off, my scrotum had swelled to the size of a small grapefruit.
My “left” testicle was in serious pain. It was the weekend, so I had to wait ’till Monday to see the doctor. Saw the urologist, he said it was rare (he sees about one a year). Said that it will take a few weeks for body to absorb blood. Said it was a hematoma.
It seems to go up, then down in size. Difficult to walk and work. Just sitting in bed with ice on scrotum all day, or on couch. At least I can work some on my laptop. But this is definitely not a good experience.
AP on 22 Nov 2009 at 9:30 pm #
I had a vasectomy on Nov. 2nd, went in as most guys do thinking it’s a small procedure & I’ll be back to normal in 1-2 days (we’ve all heard this out from our wives “it’s easier for man to do it, you’ll be in & out & that’s it” right? For my procedure I was put under & had it done by a surgeon (which is supposedly supposed to be better since they have more experience?) Any way I went in 8:00 was out & groggy in no time, the nurse gave me doctor’s note for two sick days, mentioned about frozen pees & that is all the direction I got. I followed the instructions to the tee (the little that was given), ice 10min. on 1hr apart & bed rest. That afternoon the procedure started to take it’s full effect & my scrotum turned into a small balloon (as far as I a concerned it expanded as far as it could) left side seemed significantly bigger & swelling extended up the left side of my pubic area with significant “tenderness/pain” (not a joking matter but only the head of my penis was visible which started to raise some questions in my mind about what qualifies as a “small procedure”)
The following day the swelling slightly bigger & my entire scrotum turned purple/black including what was left of left side of my penis & pubic area. I went back to see a doctor in emergency room, he prescribed some T-3’s & T-4’s & strong anti-inflammatory & a doctors note that extended my sick days for another eight days. By Friday the area was as black as can be, the scrotal swelling was mostly gone only to expose slightly enlarged right testicle & a medium potato sized left one (which seemed to have some kind of hardening on the left side. That night & following two I slept three hours at most due to sever stomach pain (the funny/sad thing was I wasn’t able to curl up in a ball (which usually helps with stomach pain) because that caused the pain in my left testicle) until I was finally to exhausted for the pain to keep me awake) – Monday I found out from another doctor I developed Gastritis (can develop into an Ulcer) from the anti-inflammatory drug, which I then stopped taking & got another drug to help with Gastritis. He also checked out my “condition” & told me to wear very tight underwear to help with support & swelling.
Anyway back to vasectomy, following Thursday I noticed both the pain & size of my left testicle increasing (if I wore tight underwear it felt like someone was standing on my testicle, if I didn’t it felt like someone was trying to rip it out along what ever cords were still attached to it & the pain was worst, by Friday noon (day 12) I was in so much pain I had to go back to emergency to see what was going on, they wanted to give me a shot of Morphine – I don’t like taking strong drugs unless I really, really have to – so we settled on Percaset & told me to go to local big city emergency room & see a Urologist & told me they might have to operate. After 10hrs in emergency room (they forgot about me for 2.5hrs in one of the rooms after a visit by a first doctor) waiting, no food or drinks (because of a possible surgery), inconclusive ultrasound, more waiting, blood test they forgot to do, I was told it was a large hematoma (which I guess should be a relief since the other option was infection) I got prescription for an antibiotic & was told to take painkillers until pain subsides after which it may take another SIX WEEKS to get back to normal (or maybe longer).
Right now I’m trying to be patient & wait it out, hoping I don’t lose my testicle in the process (I have to get another ultrasound done in about two weeks to check the progress & make sure the infection doesn’t develop). So much for a simple procedure.
KP on 06 Dec 2009 at 10:43 am #
It is Sunday morning, I had a vasectomy on Friday afternoon. By the evening there was a lot of swelling. When I made it upstairs for bed at around 9pm I feinted and passed out, thankfully on the bed. My wife got me to come round and I went to sleep. I woke at 11 and tried to go to the bathroom. My scrotum and penis were so black and blue and swollen I couldn’t really go. About the size of a cabbage. Then I collapsed again. My wife phoned NHS direct and by 3am I was in Accident and Emergency. Two people from the surgical team examined me and said I had a Haematoma but that they didn’t see any need to keep me in the hospital. I have been in bed since. I can hardly walk. A good tip for sleeping is on your side with a pillow folded three times between your knees. During the procedure I recall a wincing pain, despite the local anaesthetic. I asked the Doctor what it was and he said he had dropped something without removing it first. I don’t know what he dropped or what he should have removed it from first. I feel slightly out of it, very tired. Just for the fun of it I might contact a lawyer on Monday morning, as well as my GP, and if I can sue the doctors arse off I bloody well will. Just went to the toilet and my penis looks like a rotten piece of black pudding. My scrotum is so swollen I cannot contain it within my underpants. The swelling has gone down a little in the past 6 hours. Previously my scrotum was one round hard lump, now there is enough flexibility for some if it to push past the elastic of my underpants which is fine until you move.
Think twice gentlemen, think twice. This is not the routine, business as usual, procedure it is made out to be.
Casey on 01 Jun 2010 at 11:51 am #
My advice, be proactive. I posted on April 20, 2009 and forgot to report back. I had my doctor go back in and remove the hematoma. It was painful but worth it. I was 100% in a week. Doctors will say that the swelling will go down over time but 6 months is rediculous. Go back in! You’ll get you life back.
Emma on 10 Jun 2010 at 7:59 pm #
My partner thought it would be a good idea to have the snip, after reading the info he was given it did not seem to bad ! so he booked up for 18th May 2010. the opp was done by his doctor at a local treatment centre at 3.30pm he was out the door by 4.30 and back at home with his feet up by 6.00pm he was in extreem pain and was turning between white and grey feeling dizzy also his testies were bigger than my fist scruntched up and put together. I some how managed to get him into the car and to the hosptail, they advised that it was internal bleeding, they said they had never seen anything like it. The internal bleeding turning into a blood clot by day 3 they were the size medium size football, looking like they were going to split open. its now 10th june yesterday we went for a scan, they confirmed that it was a large hematoma but they did not want to operate as infection rate would be high they could not say anything of any use really. darren is still in a lot of pain he still can not walk proper but at least his balls are now only the size of a small football but on his right side he above he also has a swelling the size of a sausage. Its been tough for darren the pain not beeing able to do anything when he is normally so movaited. its also been really hard for me and the kids to see darren up and down and in so much pain, and not being able to join us in family things like pizza hut, cinema, days out or even just doing the food shopping.
Nick on 10 Jul 2010 at 7:16 pm #
I had my vasectomy outpatient on June 25, 2010 at 2:00 P.M. I didn’t feel a thing except for the needle and lidocane injection. I came straight home and had two percocet as the pain was starting to kick in. I stayed on the couch with my feet up, ice, etc. By 10:00 P.M. I was in absolute misery. I couldn’t lift my right leg and had to have my girlfriend move my feet for me. The following day was much worse and my testicles were swollen immensly. I could not walk and called the doctor. The doctor told me that I should keep up with the ice and it should get better by day three. Well by day three I had bruising down to my knees on both thighs my penis and testicles were almost black in color so I went to the emergency room. The emergency room doc told me I had a large blood clot on the right side. He gave me a pain shot and set me up to see my original urologist the following day. I went to see my original doc the following day and he told me I had a hematoma on the right side and that I should be on bed rest for 1 week. He also told me not to take any motrin, ibuprofen or asprin becuase they can encourage bleeding. I stuck to the couch and tylenol for one week and went back yesterday for a follow up. I still have the large lump above my right testicle which is hard as a rock and hurtful to the touch. Much of my bruising has subsided but I still cannot stand upright or sit straight up in a chair for more than 5 minutes without feeling like my right nut is going to expolode. He stated that if he were to operate on the hematoma it could worsen the condition and that this could take up to six weeks to heal. Since from all the info I read on this beforehand I was lead to believe that in 3 days all would be fine I am quite upset and if you are considering a vasectomy I would hope you will reconsider. I know I would not do it again.
Mark on 13 Jul 2010 at 11:17 am #
Goodness, and I felt I was being paranoid about the swelling on my left testicle. I had this procedure done 13 days ago now. After the initial discomfort during the procedure all seemed well enough. Experienced what I would describe as moderate discomfort during the initial two to three days recovery and returned to work on the Saturday night following the Wednesday procedure.
The wound was slightly uncomfortable but these last few days a mass (small) has developed on my left testicle and is casing me quite a degree of discomfort now. I was thinking perhaps I am fussing about something that is quite normal after a vasectomy but upon reading this forum perhaps not. It would seem to be a haematoma based on the evidence on here but I will make an appointment for a follow up.
Nick on 15 Jul 2010 at 5:53 am #
A word of advice to anyone reading. After almost a month of having a hematoma on my right side and my doctor telling me that the pain and sweling would decrease in six weeks I sought a second opinion. My new doctor that I saw yesterday scheduled me for surgery tomorrow. He told me that my right testicle is dying and was outraged that my initial doc would allow me to remain in this condition for six more weeks. I am going to have to be admitted to the hospital after surgery to drain properly and he cannot garuntee that my right testicle will be able to be saved. If you have a hematoma and your doctor offers no help GO SEE SOMEONE ELSE! If you want the name of my new doc email me…..snc129@live.com. I’d hate to see anyone else lose a testicle over a botched vasectomy. Good luck
Comstock on 16 Jul 2010 at 6:07 pm #
I just wanted to let people know that hematomas do get better. I had my surgery on June 10, 2010. On the third day post-surgery I noticed the pain seemed to be worsening. I also noticed a large walnut-sized lump above my right testicle. I returned to the doc who said I had a hematoma that should clear up in a few weeks. For the next week my testicle hurt when I stood so I tried to keep off my feet as much as possible, and sleeping was hard because I woke myself by moving in a way that caused pain. Over the following week the pain diminished: I would describe it as uncomfortable but not intensely painful, like a feeling of pinching and sometimes burning, but not terrible. I was still concerned because the lump seemed the same size. Well, over the next two weeks I noticed it was smaller and the pain was going away. Now, five weeks on, the lump is gone and I feel about like I did before the operation.
I know some people here have had it bad–like the fellow who posted just above–but for others, I wanted to put in a story of healing. I was scared and angry when I developed the hematoma, and I was looking for reassurance, which is in short supply here. If you have a hematoma and it isn’t clearing up on schedule, see another doctor. But for many guys, it really is just a matter of weeks.
rachal on 26 Aug 2010 at 3:46 am #
My husband just got a vas on the 19th of august was fine until the 5th day and now has a hematoma went to the docs today and wasnt very reassuring he wants us back in two days to see if any of the swelling as gone down but only prescribed an antibiotic and said to take ifbuprofen is it common for them not to prescribe something stronger i mean it looks so painful and he looks like hes in pure hell
rachal on 26 Aug 2010 at 3:47 am #
oh and another quick question does anyone know if heat or ice worked best thanks